robsteele
Old Timer
Posts:47
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| 29 Jan 2008 04:57 AM |
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scottyb,
Are you the appropriate IHBA contact for input on this topic?
I remember the Scotty Lumbert crash, and yes I can see where that was a scary and potentially dangerous situatiuon. If I read the post right the idea is to pull the latch open with a 1/16" cable? The cable in tension is a good idea in that it will not affect the normal latching operation, the cable will just slightly slack as the latches operate and not tend to jam their operation. The typical capsule has latches that open/close opposed to each other so impact in a direction be it forward or backwards would not tend to jolt the latches open. I think you will find most release levers on the lid-latch style capsules is on the left side with a solid rod-linkage to the top of the left latch itself, with 2 cables between the two latches. This design was basically mandated by IHBA/SFI at the original capsule specification meetings. Again if I read the post correctly, lid latch capsules were suggested to have the release lever on the left front of the lid. If you were going to pull the cable in tension to open the latches you would have to attach the cable to the bottom of the latch. In the capsules I manufacturer and other manufacturers build there is not sufficient clearance to add a bare cable on the bottom. For my capsules I think the top of the right side latch would be a better place to grab the latch. On my left side latch I make it 1" taller and attach the solid linkage from the interior opener to it. The added 1" gives you noticable added leverage as my springs are very stiff (this helps slam the latches shut and keeps them closed) This would also aid the new exterior latch making it easier to operate. The next issue I see is protecting the exterior latch from physical damage and premature release in a crash. Here is where I need a sketch pad. Imagine a lever similar to the typical interior latch release only on a horizontal plane. Use the lid roll bar to bolt through as a pivot, cut a small slot in the lid composite, build a thin steel bezel, oval shaped 1"x4"? to go over the slot, weld small tabs vertically beside the slot and release lever, drill a 1/4" hole in the tabs and lever and put in some kind of safety pin? There is the quick version I thought of while I ate my lunch at work today, now the trick is to make it work. Is this what you/IHBA is after? I type really slow but talk much faster. I would like to discuss this at length with you or whoever the appropriate IHBA contact might be. I can be reached evenings at 775-849-0701 PST. I would love to hear any other ideas. |
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Dave Glass
Gold Memeber
Posts:114
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| 29 Jan 2008 02:06 PM |
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Rob,
I agree with your idea. As in the case of our capsule lid and latch system, our release lever is a push to unlatch instead of a pull. That way if something was to happen, which has. your not in thier grabbing levers which in turn could release the lid. you have to reach for it and push forward to release the lid. With the pull type release, I think this has got people into trouble in the past, When things start to go wrong you just start grabing levers or what ever is close and often you see the lid come open and get tore off. Just my two cents on this subject.
Dave Glass
Whiskey River II, TFH |
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Dave Glass
Whiskey River II, TFH |
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Daryl Busby
Posts:461
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Scott Burrows
Posts:1444
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| 29 Jan 2008 04:55 PM |
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Good points Dave.
Rob I am not the one you need to talk to. That would be John Flores or Charlie Fegan. Our interest (IHBA Rescue) is more a matter of functionality and uniformity.
One of the things he mentioned was not cutting holes for flush mount or hidden latches, unless done during manufacturing, but if you and a few capsule builders were behind it, it may be viewed differently. I will pass your phone number to one or both of them.
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Admin Sims
aka "The Admin"
Posts:3043
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| 29 Jan 2008 10:58 PM |
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One thing I did not mention Scotty at the meeting and wanted to get with you afterwards to share it with you is that I use to carry a speed wrench with a 7/32 Allen head so I could remove the glass from the canopy. With today’s technology you could have a cordless impact wrench handy to do the same. The one requirement would be that ALL bolts holding the glass in MUST be standard size and CHECKED during tech. To me this seems to be a more realistic thing to do than adding a cable.
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Eddie Knox
Posts:1044
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| 30 Jan 2008 02:05 AM |
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That's not going to work very well if there is a nut on the other side, which I believe most windshields are held on with. This subject needs to be thought out very thoroughly before we get to adding cables and poking holes in things. I can tell you this, it takes a pretty good pull of the lever to open a capsule lid, so I would imagine it's not going to be to easy to open with a small cable. I DO think that anything we can do to better the system is always a great idea. We put small bimba cylinders that go behind the latch when activated to help prevent the lid from opening, it is driver activated but you can still open the lid externally by pulling the pins. Long ago I built a couple of little devices (hooks so to speak) that could be attached to a slide hammer and aid in removing a bent pin. I'm not sure if rescue still has them or not. There also used to be a small chain saw with a guard to cut through the windshields if needed. Again, I think it's a great idea to improve safety and we should most certainly welcome the manufacture's input like Rob's and others. Does anyone know of many instances of bent pins preventing the lid from opening?? On another note, we also moved the parachute lever to the other side of the capsule so a driver wouldn't grab the wrong one in a situation.
www.eddieknoxracing.comProblem Child TFH #712<!-- Edit --> Post Edited (P.C.) : 1/30/2008 3:08:14 AM GMT |
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www.eddieknoxracing.com
Problem Child TFH #712 |
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Hang fin
Posts:498
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| 30 Jan 2008 02:43 PM |
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Eddie,
Why not have a portable drill with a 4 inch hole saw attached? You could cut a hole right at the handle. Don Jones and I were talking about his and he came up with this idea. Sure you would need a new windshield but I would think you have bigger problems at this point. |
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Eddie Knox
Posts:1044
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| 31 Jan 2008 01:20 AM |
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Hang' That's not a bad idea. You could use it to cut through the window or even the side if necessary. I know one thing for sure, rescue has always been open to anyway we can improve the "rescue" itself. I'm going to donate a larger Co2 bottle for the cut-off tool they have and maybe we could put together an air-drill/hole-saw deal for them as well. Also, I'm going to imagine that the outside release WILL be implemented, so I think we should keep the ideas flowing on that project and other "safety tools" as well. If I had an idea of what different types of pins were being used, I could build another slide hammer device for the guy's.
www.eddieknoxracing.comProblem Child TFH #712 |
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www.eddieknoxracing.com
Problem Child TFH #712 |
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Admin Sims
aka "The Admin"
Posts:3043
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| 31 Jan 2008 02:55 PM |
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Hey Eddie and Tony, I think you are on something here!!! I hear Milwaulkee calling to donate either a cordless or gas powered drill!!! hmm Rescue sponsored by Milwaukee kinda sounds like a great idea!!!
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Geral Laney
Posts:210
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| 31 Jan 2008 03:21 PM |
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I like it. A hole saw, simple and effective. In our case removing the glass would not allow you to get the driver out. Yes you could attend to him and get to the latches which is a good thing. As far as the exterior latch release goes you don’t need a handle or lever attached to it. Just secure the cable end and rescue can have a handle with them that they can attach to the cable and pull. This would probably solve the problem of it opening in a crash since there is only the wire end secured with a small clamp.
Geral Laney
Bullet
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Geral Laney
Bullet
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Eddie Knox
Posts:1044
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The other Dunn
Old Timer
Posts:90
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| 03 Feb 2008 07:46 PM |
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SAWZS ALL the canopy off" why even mess with a hole saw..... It would supprise you how fast the thing will cut OFF....If a boat takes a hard enough hit" that you can't open the lid, the canopy is not going back on the capsule in the first place. I don't think I would recert it...(and I don't think Rob would either!)...... (IT just aint gonna happen)
The word (MILWAUKEE) came up.....I will supply the SAW and blades....you got a sponsor"
Besides most all of the release handles are in the lids...the cable can't go out the back if you pull to release...so they have to be pushed or use some pulley's....ITS A GOOD IDEA.. "BUT IT IS JUST ONE MORE THING TO GO WRONG" AND IF IT CAN GO WRONG IT WILL!
I WILL ORDER TWO SAWS ONE FOR A BACK UP......PROBLEM SOLVED
You have my number call me or E mail me....Jim Dunn |
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Dads Toy Down Under
Posts:174
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| 03 Feb 2008 09:21 PM |
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Hey Jim, can you arrange the same deal for us down under? Milwaukee Power Tools are here too, so maybe your contact there could arrange one for our rescue team here. I'm sure Paul would appreciate it! and me for that matter.....
Gary James
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The other Dunn
Old Timer
Posts:90
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| 06 Feb 2008 04:36 PM |
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I talked with Big C Tuesday afternoon about the saw idea he says he wants the additional cable release...so it is what it is..!
BULLET..... |
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JT69383
Flat-Out
Posts:525
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| 06 Feb 2008 07:03 PM |
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It would seem to me any tool companey would donate a gas powered saw, drill or whatever if a few decals of the products were put on the rescue boat and timing trailer. It would be the sh!ts to be attempting to save a driver and say...if we only had a saw, drill or whatever...... My 2 cents, throw the change in the kitty.
John Thompson
'an old guy with an old boat'
Clear Lake, Northern California
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An Old Guy with an Old Boat
'69 Agua Craft
Clear Lake
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robsteele
Old Timer
Posts:47
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| 06 Feb 2008 07:22 PM |
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Jim,
Did he have any additional criteria on the requirements? I am with you on this, done wrong it could easily become a liability, just one more thing to go wrong. I wonder if something as simple as a cable attached to the latch/release routed through a small hole in the lid with a 1 1/2" ring for rescue to attach their crowbar kind of thing through to pull/release. Skip a lever assembly cut into capsule? The crowbar would need to be pretty big as I think Eddie is right you will be surprised how hard it is going to be to pull open the latches.
Ideas?? |
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Rob Scobee
Pro Racer
Posts:40
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| 06 Feb 2008 08:16 PM |
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Has any testing been done to test the cable in the event of an accident? Would the friction between the cable and the water be great enough to release the latch? There is also the issue of a service loop on the inside to allow the latch to open/close (one more thing to hang up). Now we need to figure out how to secure the loop so it doesn't beat the crap out of the side of the lid. |
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Greg Lempar
Pro Racer
Posts:39
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| 06 Feb 2008 08:19 PM |
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If you can't pull the pins out,I don't see how an exterior latch will be able to function.
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Admin Sims
aka "The Admin"
Posts:3043
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| 07 Feb 2008 01:44 AM |
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Must say that the Kaase design latching has the best track record for non-failure and it the same concept Jim has on his capsules. I agree there needs to be an added solution to this type of problem but there also needs time for R&D.
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Sparky Rose
Posts:128
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| 07 Feb 2008 02:03 AM |
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I'm not to sure where this whole thing is going but spending the time I did running Rescue 1 for CDBA I know that end and being a crew cheif on a PM with Robbie's capsule I see the other. New rules are always met with pissing contests and threats of "going somewhere else to play" and I've been guilty of it myself. CF's bildge pump idea while not going over to well with the driver/owner of our boat when the blower belt popped a hole in the bottom of the boat and the pump kept it from sinking the feeling changed. CDBA Rescue has a sawzall and a big ugly Gorilla bar that could pry open a tank on the rescue boat for just such events. My point would be Robbie's and the other capsule builders thoughts on modification to there designs and the consiquences of said changes. I have always been on the side of saftey for my driver and all the others but opening a can of worms with adverse effects in a crash to me deserves some thought. Just my 2 cents. Sparky
CDBA 1 |
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Admin Sims
aka "The Admin"
Posts:3043
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| 07 Feb 2008 02:17 AM |
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Hey Sparky good to hear from you!
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Sparky Rose
Posts:128
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| 07 Feb 2008 02:35 AM |
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Thanks Duane I've been around the boards just hadn't posted much. I'm back at the helm up here after Doug's departure and this thread is close to home for me with our boat and the Assoc. I don't want to see a knee jerk reaction that could put drivers and Assoc.'s at liability risks and saftey concerns. Sparky
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cole thurston
Posts:96
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| 07 Feb 2008 02:28 PM |
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Admin I agree with you on the Kaase latch design and Dunns too. I think they are the best design around and that is why my dad and I are using the same idea on our new capsule. I think the latching systems needs to be total redesigned. We've all seen a boat or two get a little out of shape and the lids will pop open, not to mention how many have opened in a crash. At the meeting I tried to bring up how Kaase has an exterior release which is a really really simple idea and works fairly well. In my opinion these exterior latches don't need to be real complex but I also don't think a cheesy piece of 1/16 cable is going to be the ticket either.<!-- Edit --> Post Edited (pgf500) : 2/8/2008 4:36:52 AM GMT |
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John white
Posts:327
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| 12 Feb 2008 12:39 PM |
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Has anyone come up with something yet that they could post a picture. In the case of Mark's capsule he has a pocket for the latch to sit into. Most capsules out there don't so where do we put this so that it won't cause more trouble than good? In the case of Todd he was pulling on the handle to open the lid and it would not so what good would another release would have done? Don't get me wrong however are we looking at the wrong fix for a problem? I am not sure but has Mark's style latch ever failed to open or opened accidently?
Juan Blanco You can not fix stupid and you can not argue with ignorance |
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You can not fix stupid and you can not argue with ignorance |
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Rob Scobee
Pro Racer
Posts:40
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| 12 Feb 2008 01:07 PM |
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In the event of a crash the only part of the latch pins that would bend is the part on the outside of the capsule. This wouldn't effect removal of the pin or the release on the inside. The issue would be if your cage came loose and no longer aligned with the shell. |
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Sam & Karen Villavicencio
Posts:189
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| 14 Feb 2008 03:24 AM |
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For heavy rescue extrications we use battery driven and 110V Sawz-alls to back up our Jaws and Hurst cutters. Battery operated are mobile in tight places. Different blade sizes and types make them flexible in their application. Your concern is the blade intrusion into the passenger space, but with training you learn where and how to cut. (Can put a sun roof in your car very quickly.) Couple of sawz-alls would take little space in the rescue boat. No pressure cylinders to carry or hoses to tangle. Spare batteries store easily. Only problem with Lexan (plastic laminate windshield) while attempting to cut can be melting, which can bind any tool you use. Just my .02<!-- Edit --> Post Edited (Fired Up) : 2/14/2008 2:36:25 PM GMT |
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Eddie Knox
Posts:1044
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| 15 Feb 2008 10:27 PM |
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I realize I'm going to take a hit on this but here goes!! I spoke with Charley today and John the other day about the external release system and after some constructive conversation I found they're not quite as crazy as I thought. I'm going to make a couple different styles and submit them asap for approval, I recommend everyone do the same as time is running short for this upgrade. What we talked about was a pretty simple design as to not over complicate the deal. I'm not a draftsman or I would show you my ideas, so unfortunately you'll have to read and hopefully understand my madness. Picture a square piece of aluminum about 2" x 2" x 1" or so thick Or a giant stringer washer (saucer). Either would be tapered on all sides. You would have your 1/8" hole for the cable and a milled out center ( 1" o.d. or more) for the eyelet to hide in. If you drill the hole at the bottom or top, the eyelet should fold up easy. You would then screw a cover over the eyelet to protect it. Rescue (if necessary) would have to remove the screws to access the eyelet. Obviously a course thread dripping with anti-sieze. Recessed 1/4" studs would work even better, if it rusted it could easily be snapped off. Anyway, this is just one idea that seems simple and fairly universal, if there are better ways please fill us in so we can implement this before the first race. Oh, and about the leverage thing we were worried about; there will be enough slack in the cable to pull it out a few inches, slide a bar through it and pull. Thanks for your time, EK
www.eddieknoxracing.comProblem Child TFH #712<!-- Edit --> Post Edited (P.C.) : 2/15/2008 11:31:27 PM GMT |
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www.eddieknoxracing.com
Problem Child TFH #712 |
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Jimmy Todd
Posts:220
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| 19 Feb 2008 05:42 PM |
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I have tried to look at all of this with objectivity and I think that you all have some pretty good ideas. however, given my experience with the outcomes of one breaching the outside skin of the capsule, I am not so sure we are not going down the wrong road. Eddie's idea kind of solves my concern with the cover attachment idea. I still think that with very little effort, Rescue could access the inside of the capsule allowing them access to the latch and handle system already in place within the capsule. I am with Fired Up. We should be looking at Fast and effective ways of accessing/breaching the capsule skin and if necessary, the roll cage too. I can tell you that we use the Hurst Tool and the Holmatro Tool and these work excellent given ANY circumstance. The problem is that these tools take up space and are heavy. I have been to MANY fire conferences and have seen many demonstrations of tools during my career. I can tell you that I am most impressed with cordless 18Volt saws-all and hole-saw tools...I can almost bet that Rescue could access the latch and handle assemblies inside the capsule in a matter of seconds given these tools. They are light weight and compact and last a very long time on a single battery. In fact, February is Fire Conference Month here in California. I imagine we could get a vendor or two to give a demonstration if we would be interested. Anyone? The cost....Rather then have each and every capsule owner/operator and manufacturer alter each capsule, lets look at keeping what we have and provide for better EMERGENCY access to those that exist... I think that I also saw somewhere where the cost could be offset with a donation from Milwaukee Tools...Just my two cents... Please do not think for a second that I am an EXPERT in this area. Additionally, I am not trying to knock any one idea or to thrash ideas here. I am just giving my perspective.. Thanks, Jimmy
I am the luckiest guy alive..Great kids, great job, great friends and a GREAT Wife......<!-- Edit --> Post Edited (Texastwanger) : 2/19/2008 6:48:07 PM GMT |
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| I am the luckiest guy alive..Great kids, great job, great friends and a GREAT Wife...... |
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robsteele
Old Timer
Posts:47
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| 19 Feb 2008 08:20 PM |
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Jimmy,
Have you ever used a battery powered roto zip saw like the drywallers use? It might eat right through the canopy lexan or it may gum up. I can tell you from experience the lexan/urethane/acrylic composite windows will gum up a blade so bad it welds itself back together. If you use the correct blade you can cut through a window at a high rate of speed. I will look in my saw box and find the name of the ones that work well.
As for the latch, Eddie's idea sounds great and functional and I know that he is qualified to build and install it. I think I can manage easily enough and so could many others. But, with a rule like this it is open to interpretation and you will see so many different versions and of varying quality that you may do more harm than good here. If a uniform design could be agreed on and drawn up it would make it safer and easier for rescue to deal with if necessary. The reality is probably that if it hit so hard the pins won't come out, the latch is probably jammed tight and you will be cutting it open as quickly as possible, I guess how is the question.
Thoughts? |
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james blevins
Pro Racer
Posts:31
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| 19 Feb 2008 08:58 PM |
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will the saw work under water???? |
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Jimmy Todd
Posts:220
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| 19 Feb 2008 09:13 PM |
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Rob....Thanks for the thoughts and yes I agree that Eddie is the Man and you are right there with him.. My whole thought process is on that we do not even need to cut the Lexan..I say that we cut the skin and maybe the roll cage of the capsule to access the Handle and hinges directly. I agree that heating up the Lexan will only cause additional problems. I say we work towards a scenario that when and if this ever happens again, we move in a direction to allow external access to the existing handles and hinges..If I am reading the ideas correctly, the cable that we are talking about is attached to the existing capsule lid latch lever and not a separate release system. Why not access the handle directly..? Something else to think about, I think this issue came to light after the Phoenix/Lumbert incident. Would this new system that we are trying to discuss have changed that scenario at all? The issue was that the frame/lid/capsule was tweaked to a point that the handle would not release the latches from the pins...If I am correct? once again, how would this new system have changed the outcome at that incident? To answer the underwater issue, I do not see use ever trying to do this underwater. We would bring the capsule to the surface and then go to work on it. I can think of Four instances when we needed to extricate underwater but it was not Necessary...We could have brought the entire boat or capsule to the surface first if necessary...Good thought though.. Jimmy
I am the luckiest guy alive..Great kids, great job, great friends and a GREAT Wife...... |
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| I am the luckiest guy alive..Great kids, great job, great friends and a GREAT Wife...... |
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richard hobson
Old Timer
Posts:27
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| 19 Feb 2008 09:43 PM |
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what about having a pin(s) in the front of the capsule that would allow the hinged portion to be removed also. this would allow removal of the lid with minimal difficulty / damage, and would also allow for another leverage point to remove the lid if it were jammed. would also make removal of an injured driver easier.
Just a thought, I am in no way an authority on this issue, just throwing out ideas to make it safer for all involved
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For IHBA Rescue Sponsorship Package
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Medical, Diver, Firefighter
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KEVIN MANCEBO
Pro Racer
Posts:21
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| 19 Feb 2008 09:46 PM |
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Eddie, I like your ideas for improving/introducing options for opening the capsule lid,but.... .(as with everyone on here this is for improved safety of all of the drivers, and this is just my opinion). K.I.S.S. This is a pretty common acronym out there so fill in the blanks as you will, but the point is keeping things simple. The first thing that comes to mind is moving or dynamic parts. I am by no means a capsule builder, driver, or crew, but over the last 5 seasons have pulled alot of pins and extricated a "few" drivers. So back to the moving parts deal, the more moving parts the more chances of failure, breaking, bending or possibly contribution to the issue already at hand. Truth be told, after an incident priorities are rapid assessment and if necessary extrication of the driver. If Eddies concept works out, SWEET!! If not, guess what fellas, we still need those tools talked about earlier. As jimmy said and from the fire service side of things, after many years there are really no "specialized" tools, but a few have become the main tools used in extrication, the Sawzall, hydraulic extrication tools (Holmatro, gas powered or hand pump), and hand tools. Ask HOS how well the old hand tool really worked on Lubert's canopy! Again not to downplay Eddie's concept at all, but in definite support of the tools....on the way to the beach we got Lumbert's canopy open we still had extrication issues and had the right tools for the job. The Holmatro combination tool was the ticket to cut him out. At a sawzall to the program and in my humble opinion, we are set. And thanks to Eddie, if we do have a sub surface issue, the pneumatic "KNOX" tool will be effective. One last note, and again not downplaying or smashing ideas unless we try it, but on several occasions i have seen conscious drivers unable to pull the handle to release their canopy, either due to structural jarring or personal injury. What I'm getting at is if we try and drill a hole through the canopy or skin with a hole saw, yes we well get an arm in there to touch the driver and or the canopy release but i don't think you can get the right range of motion to actually actuate the release handle,,,, then we are back to the new cable concept. Again just opinion based on experience.
Kevin M. Mancebo IHBA Rescue Diver |
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Kevin M. Mancebo
IHBA
Rescue Diver |
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Admin Sims
aka "The Admin"
Posts:3043
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| 20 Feb 2008 12:26 AM |
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The attached is a rough example of what I stated at the banquet.
Instead of going out the back why not the front, extend the handle from the pivot point to attach and run the cable along the frame out the canopy and attach it to one of the washer that holds the glass in. This would require the nut to the bolt to be fixed. If you use stainless you would need to machine a steel wrench type of socket the nut would be recessed in and this bolt would have to be the same for all so rescue would have the correct wrench size. This would also need to include a T-Handle with a hook device that rescue can use to hook the hole in the washer to pull with.
Whatever the final answer is will be great but I totally agree that there should be multiple solutions not just the cable idea.
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latch-cable.jpg
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Eddie Knox
Posts:1044
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| 20 Feb 2008 01:46 AM |
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Okay guy's, I finished and tested the first protype today. I used the top hole of the passenger side latch (this one is not used but exists) I welded a morse cable type clamp in place and then welded the bulkhead end right above the gas pedal with the threaded end protruding through the capsule. It was the most likely leveragable spot available. Fit great looked nice but here's the bad point. I threaded a ring type eyelet on the end, put a pretty good sized screwdriver and then pryed with all of my might and could NOT GET THE LATCH TO OPEN!!!!! I hate to say it but with out a crow-bar type or lever device you can't get it open. It could still work but everyone would have to have the same exact set-up for rescue to to be able to carry a common tool to open it. I'm going to keep working on it but I think extracation tools may still be the best method. I personnaly would rather the lid NOT come open and trust my buddies with a boat load of tools could get me out when necessary. Again just my .02 What really needs to be addressed is the fit of the pin and latch mechanism, if that latch is cocked even a little, that pin isn't coming out. I'm going to keep working away at it but I have nothing solid to offer right now. It's a good topic and we are receiving civil, constructive input about this MOST important subject. Keep it coming.
www.eddieknoxracing.comProblem Child TFH #712 |
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www.eddieknoxracing.com
Problem Child TFH #712 |
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Admin Sims
aka "The Admin"
Posts:3043
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| 20 Feb 2008 03:04 AM |
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Eddie thanks for your R&D and input, we need to keep an open forum for new capsule concepts. The capsule designs we have today have not been thoroughly tested to use and we have been our own test dummies. It seems our time line has been… protecting the driver (80’s)… keep the lid closed (90’s) Enable rescue to excavate the driver (2000’s)… It's been long overdue; we are still using the first generation capsule in a way. Our speeds have increased; with this we have discovered new malfunctions with 20 year old technology. Keep up the great work.
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Rob Scobee
Pro Racer
Posts:40
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| 20 Feb 2008 03:19 AM |
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Once again... If the pins are bent or the cage is cocked the lever doesn't work on the inside of the capsule. The mechanism on the outside would be inop as well. The way I see it you need to attach the cable to the handle. If the throw on your handle is too short you will need to extend it. The cable will need to be directed through at least one pully and possibly 2 to make it feasible to pull. Using the pully you can direct the motion forward, backward or straight back out the side. |
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Scott Burrows
Posts:1444
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| 20 Feb 2008 03:48 AM |
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Eddy, thanks for all your hard work. We know where your heart is and it is for the betterment of safety.
Kevin spoke about extricating Scotty Lumbert fron his capsule with the Holmatra tool. He would know about this since he worked his way to total and complete exhaustion, on that case. As well as it works, it is painstakingly slow and very heavy.
In my business, we use gas powered cutoff saws. Each of my crews use them often and every day and I have personal experience with them for nearly 25 years. These commercial grade saws last for several years under these conditions and are very reliable. They have the ability to cut just about anything very quickly. We have cut everything from 4" thick concrete to 30" x 1/2" steel pipe with these saws and their replaceable abrasive blades. They would make short work of any composite material of a capsule shell or windshield and then have the ability to cut through any tubing very quickly. In our situation, there would not be the same confinement considerations that make them seem cumbersome to other emergency crews dealing with twisted wreckage. The only down side I see is they need fresh mixed gas. This would require a regemine of seeing that the fuel was ran out between races and freshened before the next race.
I am also interested in the cordless Sawzall, but I doubt it can come close to the speed and durability of a gas powered cutoff saw. I'm not saying that this tool would solve evry problem in every situation, but it would be a "Go To" tool that would work in almost any above water situation. JMHO
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KEVIN MANCEBO
Pro Racer
Posts:21
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| 20 Feb 2008 04:22 AM |
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NO GO on the cut off saw unless a last resort. A catastrophic failure of a cutting disk, could be just that, catastrophic! In the right setting, without tension, compression or binds they are fast, but let me ask you a question. On all of those shock tv shows with pavement drags, stock cars, sprint cars, personal vehicle accidents etc, do you see rescuers using circular cutting saws? To much potential for that circular disintegration. Sawzall and hydraulics have been proven time and time again. Slow possibly but effective and precise. Hey how do you think lumbert would have felt using that saw on the little issue he had inside the capsule? we could definitely give it a try scotty but why reinvent the wheel. below is a link to a economical fix we use on our apparatus where space and $$ is limited.. Still a hydraulic combination tool but is hand operated, hence not needing a powerplant etc. http://products.holmatro-usa.com/de...id=HCT3120
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Kevin M. Mancebo
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Scott Burrows
Posts:1444
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| 20 Feb 2008 11:32 AM |
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squeeb said...NO GO on the cut off saw unless a last resort. A catastrophic failure of a cutting disk, could be just that, catastrophic! In the right setting, without tension, compression or binds they are fast, but let me ask you a question. On all of those shock tv shows with pavement drags, stock cars, sprint cars, personal vehicle accidents etc, do you see rescuers using circular cutting saws? To much potential for that circular disintegration. Sawzall and hydraulics have been proven time and time again. Slow possibly but effective and precise. Hey how do you think lumbert would have felt using that saw on the little issue he had inside the capsule? we could definitely give it a try scotty but why reinvent the wheel. below is a link to a economical fix we use on our apparatus where space and $$ is limited.. Still a hydraulic combination tool but is hand operated, hence not needing a powerplant etc. http://products.holmatro-usa.com/de...id=HCT3120
It looks like you simply pump it, like a hydraulic jack. Does that require a second person or can one man do it? So how much $$$? It doesn't list the price.
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Mike Ferguson
Gold Memeber
Posts:110
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| 20 Feb 2008 12:16 PM |
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Scott or Jimmy, would a small accees panel be out of the questoin or would it violate the integrity of the capsule? I know you don't want to put holes when you don't have to. Just a thought. And tell Rhonda hi from Waco.
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richard hobson
Old Timer
Posts:27
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| 20 Feb 2008 12:24 PM |
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on that same site kevin showed there is a battery operated version that looks like it does the same thing.
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Jimmy Todd
Posts:220
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| 20 Feb 2008 02:13 PM |
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Fergy....First, thanks for asking about Rhonda and I..She is great, I am a turd..!!!! I am not a capsule builder nor an expert on this issue, but I can tell you from experience (and bad experience at that) that anytime you have even the smallest opening and it impacts the water it is UGLY...I am not going to mention specific incidents or crashes because this would only bring up bad memories and will not serve this topic, but if I had my way, there would be no additional holes in the capsule.... Scotty B, I have to agree with Kevin on the Circular Power saw Tool deal. I have had one of these saws "K-12" style in my hand running full tilt when the blade came apart. THis was during a training exercise and we were cutting sheet metal (thin) roll up garage doors when it happened. It just about took my arms off...I cannot imagine doing this next to a drivers head or extremities...Great thought though and as a last resort when you have no other choices when IMMEDIATE access is necessary, there is not a better tool.... You would be suprised where the battery powered sawsall technoligies have gone. Often, by the time we fire up the Hurst or Holmatro, our "Truckers" have the "A" pillar, "B" pillar and windshields cut out with this tool. It REALLY works fast....I have also witnessed a hand held hardened steel tool cutter that is amazing. It uses the same actuaters (sp) that wind out the flaps on commercial jets. Talk about torque...I could not believe what I was seeing. This thing demonstrated all day without running out of power. And this is just one option. I think we need to do some more reaserch in the hand tools area of these products... Here are a couple of sites...I am not saying these are the best, just giving an idea of what is out there. Kevin M can tell you that at Fire Conference, there are literally 100's of vendors with the latest, greatest, lightest tools out there..And donations of the tools are not out of the question if you work with the right sales person.. There has been a VERY gracious offer from Jim Dunn regarding the Millwuakee tools donation. I cannot think of a reason not to take him up on this offer.....I would contact him right away... http://www.rescue-tools.co.uk/engli...omesfs.htmLastly, thanks Eddie for taking the lead on this very important topic. Keep up the good work... Jimmy
I am the luckiest guy alive..Great kids, great job, great friends and a GREAT Wife......<!-- Edit --> Post Edited (Texastwanger) : 2/20/2008 4:50:26 PM GMT |
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| I am the luckiest guy alive..Great kids, great job, great friends and a GREAT Wife...... |
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Scott Burrows
Posts:1444
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| 20 Feb 2008 04:15 PM |
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Texastwanger said...
Scotty B, I have to agree with Kevin on the Circular Power saw Tool deal. I have had one of these saws "K-12" style in my hand running full tilt when the blade came apart. THis was during a training exercise and we were cutting sheet metal (thin) roll up garage doors when it happened. It just about took my arms off...I cannot imagine doing this next to a drivers head or extremities...Great thought though and as a last resort when you have no other choices when IMMEDIATE access is necessary, there is not a better tool....
I will not question either of you about extricating victims. You guys do it every day and are very good at it. Maybe we need to pursue the Sawzall route or one of you fire studs can get the hydraulic thingy donated.
However, I can comment about the use of cutoff saws. I have never had a catastrophic failure of a blade in 25 years of running 4-6 saws, on a daily basis. The only exception was due to cheap blades, poor maintenance, or impropper installation. These did not result in catastrophic failure, only fraying, unravelling, or rapid deteriation.
When I bought this up, my only concern was whether toxic gasses might be created from cutting the composite materials.
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Daryl Busby
Posts:461
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| 20 Feb 2008 05:03 PM |
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OK now here is a simple question. I have read all of these post and have heard some really GREAT ideas but has anyone brought this up to IHBA that some of these things don't work (eddie's R and D) and that maybe they need to hash all this out and make it standard (give specs) before they go making a rule? We may end up with 50 different ways poeple implament this and 48 of them don't work. Just a question
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Scott Burrows
Posts:1444
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| 20 Feb 2008 05:11 PM |
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P.C. said...
I realize I'm going to take a hit on this but here goes!! I spoke with Charley today and John the other day about the external release system and after some constructive conversation I found they're not quite as crazy as I thought. I'm going to make a couple different styles and submit them asap for approval, I recommend everyone do the same as time is running short for this upgrade.
Sounds like Eddy is speaking to IHBA and I would bet that many others are as well. Hopefully they are being proactive, like Eddy, and testing their ideas as well.
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Sparky Rose
Posts:128
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| 20 Feb 2008 05:39 PM |
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I think the battery operated tools still would solve alot of the concerns of entry. JT and Scotty have you been in situations where they would have come in handy for extraction? I purchased a complete set that have been on our Rescue boat for 5 years just for this scenario. JT good to hear you and that lovely bride of yours are doing well, I think Rhonda should run for President if she can put up with you running a country would be a piece of cake.......LOL. Sparky 
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Robert Mills
Pro Racer
Posts:48
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| 20 Feb 2008 09:28 PM |
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Has anyone addresses the design of the latches it seems to me that a lot of the crashes the lids come open. Has any thought been given to improving there design so that does not happen. Mark and Bill Kaase have designed a great latching system that works and is on all there capsules
and I do not believe that any of there's have came open. I know that Dayrl Ehlick has added this type of system to a few boats and it is a great idea. I think he has even tested it himself a few times maybe someone should be talking to him and not trying to put a bandade on the fix do it right the first time The Kaase's also have a handle on the outside for opening the capsule which has been on all theres
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cole thurston
Posts:96
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| 20 Feb 2008 11:49 PM |
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Mills I agree, Kaase has a very good system as does Dunn. My dad and I are using a simular latch in our new capsule. Kaase's outside opening handle is very simple too and works great. I think the older capsules should possible look into retro fitting to the kaase and dunn design latch. Just my opinion. |
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Greg May
Posts:489
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| 21 Feb 2008 12:26 PM |
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Would there be a way to make it so that we could put in some sort of T-Handle fitting from the outside where it would go directly into the latch/handle itself. Mainly if there is a way for us to even get a beefed up allen wrench with a breaker bar in from the outside into that latch we would be able to open the lid using the existing hardware without putting in a bunch of extra holes in the capsule. I am not sure what kind of issues this would cause with all of the systems out there. If the pins are bent we still might have the same issue but with the extra leverare we might be able to get it open. Just a thought
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